By Aurea Astro
Communications Fellow
A couple weeks after helping to host the first OpenGovWest conference in Seattle, Re-Vision Labs members Brett Horvath, Nick Spang, and Daniela Vasquez discuss the Gov 2.0’s present challenges, opportunities, direction, and why they would be smiling from their municipal office in 2060 if all goes as hoped.
Q: WHAT CHALLENGES DO YOU SEE IN THE GOVERNMENT 2.0 MOVEMENT IN 2010?
Full Responses to Opportunities and Challenges MP3

Brett Horvath at OpenGovWest conference. Photo by Lawrence Leung: curiousangle.com.
BRETT: The biggest challenge right now is that the open government movement is not a social movement; it’s a movement of technocrats and innovators, and therefore the conversations are really limited in scope.
NICK: I think the challenges are mainly twofold: One is from the citizen’s side. It’s hard to get citizens engaged and to invest the time that it takes to learn about issues and then share their thoughts. People are too distracted. There’s a lot of ways to occupy your time, and spending it getting involved in policy is a huge investment that I don’t think a lot of people are willing to make right now.
The other challenge is administrative. The changes that are coming about with the IT revolution are requiring a complete re-thinking about how you share information with constituents and retrieve it from them, and those changes are meeting a lot of resistance from people who don’t want to spend the time taking the risks to try out new systems and learn new things.
DANIELA: One, leadership, and two, engaging the citizens. You can have a very committed leader and it’s going well, but elections change the leader and you have to start again. It is very difficult to trigger the movement of the citizens. How do we create a way that is really meaningful for them? The government tries to use push technology – it needs to engage people and really listen to what they’re saying.
BRETT: The problem is most governments are run like loose confederations of org charts. Each one of those departments fights for their budgets. The informational revolution has not treated institutions well. So many of those departments get their validity– their reason for being– by controlling information. And there’s an INVERSE relationship between freedom of information, and command and control hierarchies. The more free that information is, the less control that institution has. And the first thing the institution does is fight for its own survival.
You get this really weird dynamic where people working in government who have really innovating instincts… well, the system is actually working against them. And that’s a major problem.
DANIELA: Because you need people with vision and courage.
Q: WHAT OPPORTUNITIES DO YOU SEE IN THE GOVERNMENT 2.0 MOVEMENT IN 2010?

Daniela Vasquez on Open Gov Policy panel. Photo by Lawrence Leung: curiousangle.com.
BRETT: The Gov 2.0 movement is about to get very Darwinian. Unlike the federal government who can print new money, state and city governments are
revenue-based businesses. People in department of commerce and economic development are hungry, and they will do anything to cultivate economic growth and the Gov 2.0 movement will be the core driver of it. The last 30 years it has been a regulatory race to the bottom. Where you see states in the south making it easier to pollute so businesses will come, the opposite will happen. It’s going to be “what are the government structures and regulatory frameworks really cultivate econ growth in the 21st century?”
NICK: This is indicative of a sea change that’s occurring within our govt slowly around IT. In the old system, we elected “wise” people to make decisions for us. The government’s responsibility was to collect all of the pertinent information and then to be the wizened decision maker and come up with the right solution that represents everyone. If they didn’t come up with the right solution they wouldn’t get re-elected. And that’s the concept of government as “Solution Provider.” And that’s why under the traditional system the government has a monopoly on all the information, and operates under the idea that the more you let citizens get involved the more it just slows down the process of the wise public servant coming to their conclusion. I think we still operate very much under that paradigm.
But in the new paradigm, these people become BROKERS of the information coming from the citizens. The citizens are given equal access to information and are able to understand that information for themselves and respond to it with their thoughts, opinions and values, and deliver those to the decision-maker who has to weigh and balance and create a transparent solution that meets the needs of the people, as opposed to the traditional way where input from the people is just a distraction to the wizened public servant making their decision.
Q: CAN YOU CLARIFY THE CONNECTION BETWEEN OPEN GOVERNMENT, CITIZEN PARTICIPATION, AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT?
NICK: Part of the connection is in this concept of an Innovation Ecosystem where you can create a whole body – a whole platform – where decision-makers, citizens, and businesses go through processes much more quickly than traditionally. A lot of time the bottleneck is around information. The business needs to get the information to the agency, the agency to the public, the public to the agency, and etc. If you make all of that information flow instantly to all parties, and you don’t need these stepwise processes, I think you can quadruple the speed by which you can make equally informed decision.
BRETT: To piggyback on that, data is a stagnant concept in people’s minds. But data is not linear. You think of data, you think of 1s and 0s, charts, spreadsheets. Data is more expansive and non-linear in the way that once it gets out there and it’s put in the right format, it spreads through different mediums, it gets re-purposed, re-packaged. And government may put out one open source piece of prime data that might completely change the dynamics at the other end– in whether a business wants to locate there, how a neighborhood thinks about itself and engages in problem solving, and so forth. Getting data out there effects citizen engagement and economic development. Governments have thought that the data is theirs – they own it, they control it – and it’s not. It’s the people’s data. And it’s the government’s moral obligation to make that data useful and available in real time. And if it doesn’t, then it’s going to hold itself back, it’s going to make it harder to activate citizens, for business to interact with the government.
DANIELA: Open information and collaboration help to ensure governments don’t duplicate so many things, which is inefficient and ultimately hinders progress, economic or otherwise.
NICK: Right. For example, millions of dollars get spent every year on administrative disputes and lawsuits between agencies and agencies and citizens. In the Forest Service where I worked, the budget was about $1 million a year, but 95% of that was spent on attorney fees because every project proposed ended up getting appealed by citizen groups. And if the citizen groups ended up winning, under law the Forest Service had to pay all the attorney fees for that battle.
So this command and control structure where controlling information flow might have worked in the past for some projects is clearly failing now and costing taxpayers money and slowing things down drastically.
Q: SO WHERE IS THE GOV 2.0 GOING?
BRETT: The Tea Party Movement is just the beginning. These people that are not necessarily against abortion or gun rights, they’re just mad at the government. It is not working for them. And I think you’re right– when you have trans-national corporations that are as powerful as they are, they’re literally pitting governments against one another and seeing who can get the best deal, and exploiting all over the map. Usual boundaries aren’t going to be able to confront that and protect citizens.
The other thing I think is that the division between citizens and government is going to start evaporating. Grover Norquist, one of the titans of the conservative movement over the past 30 years, famously said that, “I want a government so small that I can drown it in the bathtub.” I want a government so porous that I can’t tell where it ends and the rest of society begins. And that is where we’re going to be pushing towards. Obviously there’s always going to be experts, institutions, and things I want to get done that I don’t want to think about. But you’re going to be living, and swimming, and breathing government all the time. You already do right now but people just don’t realize it. That is going to get further extended in some ways that are… well, kind of mind blowing.
NICK: We’re moving away from a system where public servants are expected to be the wise decision-makers who unilaterally make the most long-term balanced decision for everyone, and toward crowd sourcing to citizens. The whole nation will eventually be deciding what to do with nuclear waste from Hanford. It’s almost direct-citizen voting.
DANIELA: People will be more involved because the tools will make it more easy to do so.

Nick Spang and Bolot Bazarbaev.
Q: IT’S YEAR 2060 AND YOU’RE SITTING INSIDE YOUR MUNICIPAL OFFICE AND SMILING. WHY ARE YOU SMILING?
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DANIELA: To know that you have more equity. Basic needs are met so people can do whatever they are best at doing — to release everyone’s potential, unfettered.
NICK: Because there’s a thriving community of people below. Sustainable. People feel they’re part of a cohesive community. There’s growth. All of the basic needs are taken care of. Nobody is hungry, shelter, warmth, clean air and water, feel they can express themselves and have above all the opportunity to express their strengths and abilities.
BRETT: I’m in a bathtub (laugh). I would be smiling because I would know that if I had to solve a problem in my geography, I could work with anyone on earth, in government and society to solve that problem. We could share resources and infrastructure, adapt and be flexible, instead of year 2010 when I had to work with people in the municipal tower with the budget I had and the info I had on spreadsheets. And CD ROMS.